March 7, 2012

On the subject of sexuality, how does scripture inform our lives today?

 by the Rev. Eileen Walsh, Rector, St. Christopher's Portsmouth

There is no way to fully explore such a vast topic in a brief blog post, but I offer this as an introduction and hopefully a catalyst for readers to pursue the topic further.  First let’s look at a couple of passages that are frequently cited in most discussions of homosexuality. There is the attempted gang rape in Sodom (Genesis 19:1-29) and a similar account in Judges 19-21. These passages describe brutal behavior that has nothing to do with whether genuine love expressed between consenting adults of the same gender is legitimate or not. I would hope that in this discussion these passages would be rendered irrelevant. There are also several passages that are rather unclear as to whether the issue at hand is homosexuality alone or promiscuity. (1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10)

Aside from these there are two texts in the Hebrew Scriptures that undeniably condemn homosexual behavior. They are: 
 
Leviticus 18:22 -- You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 

Leviticus 20:13 -- If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. 

In the New Testament Paul’s condemnation of homosexual behavior is often cited:

Romans 1:26-27 -- For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 

No one could read these texts and deny that homosexual behavior is being condemned and yet it is important to read them in light of what was believed at the time and what we know now about human sexuality. In the time of Leviticus it was considered equivalent to murder to waste semen – no matter how it was done. As for Paul he did not know what we know as far as our understanding that orientation is fixed early in life, genetically in many cases. Paul is arguing from the point of view of what is “natural” and our knowledge of what is natural has expanded profoundly.

In his essay “Homosexuality and the Bible” Walter Wink set out these comparisons of biblical sexual mores and modern sexual mores (this is a small sampling):
  • The bible condemns – incest, rape, adultery
  • The bible condemns these behaviors which we generally allow – celibacy, naming sexual organs, nudity.
  • The bible permitted these behaviors which we generally condemn – prostitution, polygamy, and the treatment of women as property.
(Wink, Walter; Homosexuality and the Christian Faith, Augsburg Press, 1999. pp. 43)

The problem we get into is when we try to rely on the idea that the bible has a sexual ethic. As the list above points out, on matters of sexuality the bible is confusing. While it may not have a clear sexual ethic, the bible does have a clear love ethic. Therefore we must view the sexual mores of any given time through the lens of the love ethic exemplified by the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. It is clear that this is a non-exploitative ethic – responsible relationships, sexual or otherwise, are to be mutual, caring and loving.

It is clear that in the few places the bible discusses homosexual behavior it condemns it. I will not deny that. The bible also sanctioned slavery – are any of us prepared today to argue that scripture justifies slavery?

In trying to understand all of the confusing and contradictory parts of scripture we need to turn to The Word to shed light on the word. Remembering that The Word is a person, not a book. 


NOTE: To further explore what the scripture has to say about sexuality, please see the House of Bishops Theology Committee's Same-Sex Relationships in the Life of the Church.

36 comments:

  1. Thank you Eileen for writing this post. In 500 words you point toward a reforming understanding of how Scripture speaks to same-gender relationships.

    Given the limitations of blogging, it is impossible to give a full treatment either to the traditional understanding of Scripture or to the reformed perspective. I encourage readers to follow the link at the end of Eileen’s post and download a document titled “Same-Sex Relationships in the Life of the Church.” It was prepared for the House of Bishops in 2010 by eight prominent theologians in our church; half represent a traditional voice, half reforming. Both groups prepared papers to articulate their understanding.

    The traditional view of Scripture is presented on page 9-22, with pages 18-21 being particularly succinct. The reforming writers organized their work in such a way that they address Scripture throughout their paper beginning on page 41. This is a lengthy document, but well worth the investment for readers who want to gain a better and balanced understanding of the church’s conversation about same-gender relationships.

    Keith Emerson
    St. Paul's, Suffolk

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  2. Here is what The Word said to St Catherine of Sienna about homosexuality, “They not only fail from resisting the weakness [of fallen human nature].... but they do even worse when they commit the cursed sin against nature. Like the blind and stupid, having dimmed the light of their understanding, they do not recognize the disease and misery in which they find themselves. For this not only causes Me nausea, but is disgusting even to the devils themselves whom these depraved creatures have chosen as their lords. For Me this sin against nature is so abominable that for it alone five cities were destroyed by virtue of the judgment of My Divine Justice, which could no longer bear their iniquity.... ” Obras de Santa Catalina de Siena

    Eileen, you appear to advocate a distinctly different position which I assume is shared and taught by the church (Edmond Browning, James Spike and John Spong would no doubt agree with you). Am I correct in hearing you, a member of the clergy; say that homosexuality is natural, and present at birth? Additionally, is it your view that the Holy Bible is too riddled with conflict to be the Word of God, and as such, cannot be relied upon to provide sound ethics? Does the work presented in the Report to The House of Bishops (35 pages in exchange for over 2000 years of Church teachings) represent the totality of supportive arguments for same-sex unions?

    Bishop Hollerith, I must ask you - do you fully share this priest’s perspective?

    Kerry Holmes
    Saint Paul’s, Suffolk

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  3. In reviewing the other comments, I will add some brief notes from my perspective as a Christian and from my perspective as an addiction and forensic psychiatrist. In addition to the scripture verses as given one must go back further to see that God created man in his image (Genesis 1:27) and God's plan for man and woman is very clear in Genesis 2: 24. Original sin occurred (Genesis 3: 1-15) and man fell. Man's basic nature is to revert to sin as a default position which is so well illustrated in Romans 1: 24-32 and note what happens when God gave man up to his own devices Romans 1: 24, 26-27. Paul clearly writes about sexual behavior and admonishes us to flee fornication (I Corinthians 6: 18-20). There is nothing ambiguous about this scripture nor about that listed above in Leviticus. If we do not understand the sanctity of scripture, then we should again look at 2 Peter 1: 20-21 and 2 Timothy 3: 16-17. To reject scripture is a volitional act denying its sanctity.

    From a scientific standpoint, I would like to see the studies cited by Reverend Walsh. What I can show, having done this last week in court, is that the chemical (cocaine, heroin, and alcohol) addictions cause dopamine dysregulation and the process (obesity, internet gaming, pornography)addictions also cause dopamine dysregulation, which is well demonstrated on PET (Positron Emission Tomography)scans. There is a very clear biological commonality in addictive disorders. For Reverend Walsh, show me the science that you are citing and I will review it carefully and give my comments on this blog; what I have read so far is not scientifically valid.
    Benjamin A. Carey MD
    CAPT MC USN (retired)
    Past President, Psychiatric Society of Virginia
    Galilee Church, Virginia Beach

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    1. We are both spiritual and biological beings. What is clear to me is that biological battles exist for all of us. Some drink, overeat, lust, but we are all forgiven if we ask and attempt to move away from our "sin". If we are not able to spiritually bring ourselves out of the cluthches of whatever "it" is that plagues us we turn to others for help and support. To just throw in the towel and give in without a fight puts us on the level of mere biological beings like any other dog, cat or cow.I am not sure where this debate ends. I do know that God created us to love one another and not judge. So I will love my brothers and sisters in Christ, but that does not mean I have to provide a church sanctioned marriage. If they would like a civil union to share a household under the law, fine. I have no problem with that at all. Lines are drawn for many things to maintain order, prevent disputes, avoid chaos and provide security. We may not understand God's plans for us in our earthly time but later all will be clear. Love them, pray for them, worship with and for them, do not judge them, but do not marry them. Sorry if this offends anyone it was not intended.

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    2. Thank you for your comment. Please note, however, that we require you to include your name and parish with your comment. Unidentified comments will be deleted.

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  4. James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel-Virginia Beach

    Interesting points brought up in the previous comments. Kerry, I don't believe Eileen is suggesting that the "Holy Bible is too riddled with conflict to be the Word of God, and as such, cannot be relied upon to provide sound ethics". I do believe she is suggesting that as a living, breathing document, ie the Word of God, interpretations of Holy Scripture sometimes evolve with our expanding knowledge of the world around us. The reason Holy Scripture is the Word of God is because it lives and moves within each successive generation. Our understanding of divorce is a good example.

    Christ condemned divorce, except in cases of unchastity, yet TEC in the 20th century made allowances for divorce. We're not cavalier about it, but we allow divorce. One of the reasons is a reading of the scripture that takes into account the historical, cultural context in which Jesus spoke. Divorce in 1st century Palestine was solely from the man's point of view. Women in Jewish culture could not initiate divorce. Only husbands could initiate the action and the results were almost always damaging to the woman involved. A divorced woman had a loss in status, a loss in economic ability, and a loss in honor. To be a divorced woman was to be in an extremely vulnerable position. Christ's teaching, therefore (at least in some scholars' opinions) was designed to protect some of the weakest members of society, women. You should not divorce your wife and leave her impoverished and unprotected. In modern times, the Church has seen that it can be more damaging to someone to require them to remain married, for example to an abusive spouse. Times changed and, through study and prayer, our understanding of the reasons of scripture has changed.

    This is not to say I agree with everything Eileen said in her post; however, I do agree that the interpretation of Holy Scripture can change as we learn more about the context in which it was written and we bring our own studies to bear.

    As to the point of same-gender oriented sexual desire being natural and present at birth, there are studies being done that suggest just that. May I refer both you and Benjamin to http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080628205430.htm.

    While not being the full paper, there are some facts there to ponder about the occurrence of homosexuality, chiefly that sexual desire is shaped by genetics and random environmental factors. Perhaps, Benjamin, you can find the full article and let us know what you think.

    Also, and I apologize for the length of this comment, one final question for Benjamin. Are you, and forgive me if my impression is false, implying that homosexuality is an addictive disorder, like a chemical or process addiction? I could be wrong, but I believe the American Psychiatric Association no longer classifies homosexuality as a psychiatric disorder. Am I misinformed?

    Thank you both for the frank and open discussion you bring to this forum.

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  5. Ben Hines - Grace Church, YorktownMarch 8, 2012 at 2:49 PM

    Dr. Carey,

    Do you really see 1 Cor 6:18-20 as containing "nothing ambiguous"? These verses famously present some of the most well-known metaphor & double-meaning in the Pauline corpus. Unless you literally flee the room whenever adultery is referenced on television or in films... or unless you understand your physical body to be a literal temple building... it seems that your talk of "nothing ambiguous" may be overstating things.

    Further, I don't think Rev. Walsh was actually citing any sort of scientific finding regarding chemical addictions. Could you share a bit more about the connection you see between your areas of professional expertise & the lives of gay & lesbian Christians in the Church?

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  6. First, I am so thankful that this blog discussion is going on and for everyone who has participated in the conversation thus far. I truly believe that this conversation is important and we need everyone to participate for it to be a rich and meaningful discussion. I hope more members of our diocese join in on the conversation.

    This post, and those who have commented, motivates me to ask a question which myself, and I know many others, have often discussed. This is a question which I truly want a better understanding of from the point of view of those who feel strongly about following the bible to the letter when it comes to homosexuality. You say the parts of the bible that condemn homosexuality, which you believe have no room for interpretation despite new knowledge, study, and understanding of the bible, can only be taken literately and homosexuality cannot ever be accepted in your views. There are however many parts of the bible which we no longer adhere to:

    Eating shrimp/seafood
    Divorce
    Killing ones daughter who is raped and therefore disgraces the family.
    Marrying a relative (legal in over 15 states, including VA, to marry your first cousin).
    Slavery
    Stoning a person to death; a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night, a child who disobeys her parents, one who curses or for blasphemy, and for breaking the Sabbath.

    At various times in history we came to the understanding that these things were either not the right thing to do (killing, slavery) or acceptable to do despite the bible (eat shrimp, get divorced). Some of these things came about because of human rights and justice, women's rights, civil rights, etc. Some simply became accepted over time. I am not trying to argue that we should just accept homosexuality because our views on those have changed, but why is it that those things are acceptable to come to a new understanding of and change our beliefs and actions but homosexuality is not?

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    1. Juli and Ben Hine,
      See my two other posts on this blog. I will attempt to take you through scripture verses in an attempt to clarify your questions. Please follow the sequence of thoughts as there is a linear order such that each subsequent thought is built upon the preceding thoughts much like building a house starts with laying a foundation followed by framing for the structure.
      1. Faith is the foundation and it is defined in Hebrews 11: 1 and faith is a volitional act. God has given all of us Free Will and we have to make a decision as to whether or not we will have faith and "Trust the Lord in all thine heart and lean not on thine own understanding" Proverbs 3: 5-6. See also MT 8:1-11 for illustrations of the faith that the leper had and the centurion had. Their faith was volitional; see also Hebrews 11 for the Heros of the Faith. Once we have faith, then it is easy to understand scripture.
      2. See the power of God's Holy Word when He spoke creation in to existence in Genesis 1: 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24. The power of His Word is also given in John 1: 1-2, including the eternality of His existence as well as His becoming the Incarnate Word in John 1: 14.
      3. See the sanctity of His Holy Word in 2 Peter 1: 20-21 and 2 Timothy 3: 16-17. Additionally, note that when Jesus was tempted in the desert, in Matthew 4: 1-11, He chose not to call down the angesl from heaven to combat satan, but rather he responded to satan by quoting scripture, Deuteronomy 8: 3, 6: 16, and 6: 13
      4. Because God gave man free will, man has the choice to beieve and obey God; unforntunatley for mankind, Eve and Adam chose to disobey Him resulting in original sin (Genesis 3: 1-15). See Genesis 3: 15 for the first mention of God's future plan for man as well as God's use of sacrifice (Genesis 3: 21) or shed blood, to clothe man, ie, to cover man from sin. The issue of shed blood is critical to understand how God has used this act to reconcile man to Him. See Exodus 12:1-5 and then how Jesus is identified as the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world (John 1: 29, 36).

      At this starting point, I will stop until I see that you have responded to this post and then I will continue to explain scripturally and biologically the reason for my previous posts. I will check this blog on a daily basis.

      Ben Carey MD
      Galilee Church
      Virginia Beach

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    2. Ben Hines - Grace Church, YorktownMarch 14, 2012 at 4:20 PM

      Dr. Carey,
      In point #1, you reference Heb. 11:1 followed by an assertion that “faith is a volitional act.” But there is nothing in that verse that suggests faith is volitional. Since each of your points builds on the previous one, it seems that—by your own reasoning—the set of points you lay out is foundationally flawed.

      As I read through what you said however, I do wish to point out a distinction that is important (and referenced elsewhere on the blog): the difference between the eternally preexistent Word (which we understand to be the second person of the Trinity—that is, Jesus) and the “word of God” that is a common way of referring to the Holy Scriptures of the Old & New Testaments. We might represent this analogically in this form--- Word of God : word of God :: Jesus : Bible
      The Word of God and the “word of God” are critically different & we forget this distinction at our peril.

      To be honest with you, I am less interested in your ability to prooftext scripture than I am interested in hearing more about how you relate the Bible to your own daily life. Juli makes important points about the ways in which scriptural proof texts have been used historically to justify many (often contradictory!) things by the Church. Could you share more of your thoughts regarding how the Bible ought to be used on some of the issues Juli mentions?

      I remain appreciative of your thoughts & perspective.

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    3. Dr. Carey - My apologies for not responding sooner. I have been checking for responses but missed this one and was not emailed when you posted it. I hope you will continue to proceed with your thoughts in response to my my questions. I am glad, as Ben Hines is, that you are participating in this conversation and look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

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    4. Bill Hunter
      Eastern Shore Chapel Episcopal Church

      Dear Dr. Carey,
      Yes, I am yet another voice coming from Eastern Shore Chapel in addition to James Medley. I hope that you don’t get the feeling that we are ganging up against you.
      I have enjoyed your dialogue with Ben Hines and James Medley, but feel rather intimidated to join into such a well documented, erudite and detailed discussion on human sexuality.

      I would rather like to focus on Eileen Walsh’s original post and especially Juli Edward’s post of March 8th which I quote in part:

      “You say the parts of the bible that condemn homosexuality, which you believe have no room for interpretation despite new knowledge, study, and understanding of the bible, can only be taken literately and homosexuality cannot ever be accepted in your views. There are however many parts of the bible which we no longer adhere to:

      Eating shrimp/seafood
      Divorce
      Killing ones daughter who is raped and therefore disgraces the family.
      Marrying a relative (legal in over 15 states, including VA, to marry your first cousin).
      Slavery
      Stoning a person to death; a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night, a child who disobeys her parents, one who curses or for blasphemy, and for breaking the Sabbath.”

      I don’t feel you adequately responded to Juli’s posted questions. I would be interested in your views about these specific questions that Juli posed in her post.

      Could it be that the Holy Spirit is leading us into a new truth? (re: the vision of Cornelius in The Acts)

      Regards, Bill Hunter, Member of Eastern Shore Chapel

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  7. Ben Hines
    To address your questions, I note that Reverend Walsh stated "what know now about human sexuality" and later stated "and our knowledge of what is natural has expanded profoundly" and what I am asking is to show me the scientific basis for these statements. I am quite willing and able to look at this knowledge basis from a scientific standpoint to see it's merit. What I can state is that the knowledge base for addiction has changed in my 30 years as a psychiatrist and this change in the knowledge is based on very good science on dopamine dysregulation. If you want to understand the biological basis for both chemical addictions and process addictions, I will be glad to provide the references. I can show you the scientific basis for addiction in peer reviewed articles which are commonly accepted as authoritative.
    What I am asking is that Reverend Walsh or anyone else on this blog show me the science to back up her statements. Psychiatry's response has been to go from labeling Homosexuality as a disease (DSM II) in 1973 to a gradual shift, on the basis of political pressure, to now being a proponent of same sex marriages (APA 2006). However, there was no credible scientific basis for this shift in thinking contrary to what lay people may feel. Although I am a Past President of the Psychiatric society of Virginia (1998-1999), I resigned from the organization because the APA's decision was politically based and not scientifically based.
    Regarding my statements on I Corinthians 6: 18-20, I see that Paul's command is very clear. We are to immediately turn away from sexual temptation because it is not God's divine plan that we live in a sexual relationship outside of marriage (Genesis 2: 24) and he has equipped us to face temptation (I Corinthians 10: 13). Since He created us in His image (Genesis 1: 26-27) and He created Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve, then how can we explain homosexuality as "Natural". Since homosexuality is condemned in scripture, then how else can it be explained? Evolution of the human species, biological changes in man? In other words, is there a credible scientific basis for homosexuality?
    The only explanation that I can see is that man is sinful by nature and that this particular sin is one of many sins that we may choose to separate us from God (Romans 3: 11, 23). Fortunately for us, is that if we are willing to look at our sins and confess them, we know that God is just and faithful to forgive us of our sins (I John 1: 8-10).
    Ben Carey MD

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    1. Ben Hines - Grace Church, YorktownMarch 14, 2012 at 4:07 PM

      Dr. Carey,
      A quick search for the most recent peer-reviewed scholarship & articles on PubMed will generate exactly the sort of material you are asking for.

      As for the point on 1 Cor. 6:18-20, I’m afraid you still did not answer my question. I asked whether you really believe there is “nothing ambiguous” in Paul’s statements, as you initially claimed. It seems to me that very few of us read the Bible as literally true. But whether or not we are able to admit the way we approach scripture can be difficult. I suspect that you do not literally follow Paul’s teaching in those verses. As a physician you obviously regard the human body as an organic biological system rather than strictly as a literal temple building.

      As a human being living in 2012, I suspect that you also engage in many practices & behaviors that are far from “natural.” Most of our daily lives these days are anything but natural—for starters, automobiles & airplanes! If you have ever consumed meat of any kind, then you are in violation of God’s original plan for the created order in Genesis. Wearing a shirt made of cotton/polyester blend is also strictly condemned in scripture. But I’m also willing to bet that you own at least one or two ‘wrinkle-resistant’ tunics in your closet. I could go on… but you get the point.

      It is striking to me that you actually resigned a position of significant leadership over the issue of homosexuality. I can appreciate your passionate views and intense concern for integrity in the matter, but I hope that our discussion of these issues can be informed by more mutual humility regarding the ways in which each of us view the biblical text as a flexible document. This can be uncomfortable, but I pray that as we acknowledge and study our own approach to Holy Scripture, we will gain greater insight and sharpen one another as friends (Prov. 27:17).

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  8. Ben Hines and Juli,

    Since you had not responded earlier, I did not go further until tonight. There are two issues that I will address:
    From a medical standpoint, please site the studies that you have reviewed that support the unique physiological aspects of homosexuality such as age matched controlled studies that show how the biology of homosexuals is different. Have you reviewed static studies such as MRI and CT scans documenting anatomic differences in the brains of homosexuals compared to age matched controls of heterosexuals? Have you reviewed dynamic or functional studies such as PET scans or fMRI that document a different brain physiology? If you have reviewed studies that demonstrate these findings, please site them and I will then review them for scientific validity. I will be glad to address this issue further after you have provided the literature that you are referencing. I am certainly quite willing to provide studies that show the uniqueness of Type II alcoholics as described by Robert Clonninger in 1988 which explains the difference in Beta Endorphin levels and EEG differences as measured by the P-300 wave before exposure to alcohol. So my challenge to you is to show me the data that supports your opinion. Until you provide this information or want to know more about sexual addictions, I will focus my energy on scripture.
    Please read carefully my post regarding the issue of faith. Obviously, Hebrews 11: 1 defines faith. What I also stated was that faith is a volitional act. In essence we all have to make a decision as to whether or not we are going to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and whether or not we are going to accept the Bible as God's Holy Word (2 Peter 1: 20-21 and 2 Timothy 3: 16-17). Because God gave man free will, then we all have the ability to make a choice and this is the volitional aspect that I was describing.
    MT 8: 2 notes that the leper " worshiped Him, saying Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean". This is a clear illustration of faith as the leper not only worshiped Jesus, but also chose to believe that Jesus could heal him. In essence, he understood Proverbs 3: 5-6. An even more clear example of the volitional aspect of faith is the Roman centurion's intercessory faith in Jesus that Jesus could heal his servant by word only even though Jesus was going to "come and heal him". To understand this better is to look at MT 9: 9 as Matthew, a tax collector, immediately responded to Jesus and followed Him without question. Matthew's response is in contradistinction to the response to the rich, young ruler Mt: 19: 21-22.
    As I stated earlier faith is a volitional act. If we chose to believe that Jesus is the incarnate God (John 1: 14), then why would we choose to reject scripture?
    If you send me an E mail to bcarey8747@aol.com, I will then send you a Power Point Lecture that I have given on "Sharing the Gospel" This will help you understand how I view scripture. I can also provide information on the physiology of sexual addictions after you have reviewed this presentation. You will then see the connection between Genesis 2; 24, Psalm 51: 4, 16-17 and I Corinthians 6: 18-20.
    Ben Carey MD
    Galilee church
    Virginia Beach, VA

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    1. Ben Hines - Grace Church, YorktownMarch 20, 2012 at 7:22 PM

      Dear Dr. Carey,

      Your tone continues to feel hurtful to me, but I recognize that since we are online it can be difficult to discern a person’s intent behind the words. Your focus on neurotransmitters & addictive pathologies suggests to me that you believe homosexuality to be either an organic disorder or an addiction. Is that true?

      As for your scripture quotations, I hope you will recognize that 2 Peter is speaking very particularly about prophecy, not all of scripture. And of course 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is indeed referencing the entirety of scripture, though I caution us all to be careful that when we cite scripture to judge, lest we be reproved by the same.

      Are there any gay people in your family, sir? Do you have any friends who are gay or lesbian in partnered relationships, Dr. Carey? Are there any such people in your parish? When I look at the lives of partnered gay men & lesbians, I ask myself the same questions that I would ask if I were evaluating any marriage:
      - Is this relationship a proving ground for love?
      - Can I see joy and peace within these two people?
      - Are they patient, kind, & generous to one another?
      - Is their commitment to one another galvanized by faithfulness?
      - Do they exercise gentleness with each other & self-control toward themselves?

      Also, let me gently but clearly say that I am not interested in your PowerPoint lecture. I am neither interested in a discussion of neurophysiology at this time or in this venue. I would gladly have that discussion with you in person, but this blog conversation is intended to address the specific experiences of faithful people—on both sides of the issue—here in this diocese.

      Further up the page, I highlighted Juli’s important points about other issues in scripture. It would be helpful to me if you would show me how your view of scripture understands those issues (ie. the list starting with shrimp…) as an example, so I might better understand your approach. Would you mind responding to Juli’s original question?

      Thank you,
      -Ben

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  9. Ben Carey MD
    Galilee Church
    Ben Hines,
    I am glad that you chose to respond as I last wrote on 3/14. I also provided my email in my last post if you wanted to communicate with me; it is bcarey8747@aol.com and I am quite willing to communicate with you privately. When Reverend Eileen Walsh started this blog, I asked to be shown the data to support her statements: "what we know now about human sexuality", "that orientation is fixed early in life, genetically in many cases", and "our knowledge of what is natural has expanded profoundly". From a medical and scientific standpoint, I want to know the basis of these statements as I have looked at some of the data and it is not persuasive.
    I have used the analogy of addiction, a condition in which I am fequently called upon to testify as an expert witness. Some people consider alcoholism to be a condition of moral turpitude or a character flaw. However, I can show you the biological difference in Type II alcoholics to show that they are fundamentally different at birth. This science is very good and has been replicated. The issue of homosexuality and bilogical markers is certainly not as clear and her statement is general in nature and does not make much scientific sense to me. All I am asking of her or of you is to show me the data to support the statements that have been made because my reading of the research does not lend scientific validity to her and to your statements.
    So,if there is not scientifically valid research to support the statements that you and she have made, then how else do we explain homosexuality? What does scripture teach us? Is homosexuality a choice? Is homosexuality the plan that God has for man? If you are living in a homosexual lifestyle, do you want to live differently? These questions are at the very fabric of who we are as God's creation (Genesis 1: 27).

    Regarding my relations with homosexuals, I can state that I have friends who are homosexual, I have treated homosexuals professionally, and I have paid for the funeral of a homosexual friend who died of AIDS. I did my felowship in Addiction Psychiatry in San Francisco and I have seen the Gay Pride marches as well as the NMBLA marches. Obviously, I have had sufficient exposure to homosexuals throughout my life. As a person of faith, I have shared some of my experiences consistent with your description of this blog.

    That being said, the more fundamental issue for me is to make sure that I am living my life according to God's plan for me and that is why I pray Psalm 100 and Psalm 23, which is then followed by Psalm 139: 23-24.
    When you describe looking at a homosexual relationship, you describe looking at the love and committed nature of the partners as you assess its value. Certainly I Corinthians 13: 1-13 addresses the void that exists when there is not love. But the more fundamantal question to me, is how is this behavior consistent with God's plan? Is this behavior consistent with Jeremaih 29: 11? How is this relationship consistent with God's plan for man in general? Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment and he responded in MT 22: 37-40. If we love the Lord, our God with all of our heart and soul, then how does that translate in the way that we choose to live our lives? If we have received the indwelling Holy Spirit, how is that manfest is our being a new creation? How are we transformed by the renewing of our mind?

    Therefore the standard that I use for myself is to study God's Word, Pray, and live according to how the Holy Spirit guides me through scripture.
    As I have provided you my E mail address, I am quite wiling to discuss this more with you by private correspondance if you so choose.

    Ben Carey MD

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    1. Ben Hines - Grace Church, YorktownMarch 20, 2012 at 11:46 PM

      I'll make you a deal, Dr. Carey: If you'll please respond to Juli's original post (which both she and I have asked you to address multiple times), I will be happy to e-mail you for a chat offline. At this point your refusal to address the issues that have been respectfully brought up feels disrespectful to me.

      That you would quote Jesus' recitation of the greatest commandment but stop short of including his words regarding the second "like unto it" feels like confirmation of the hurt I expressed earlier.

      Delete
  10. Ben Carey MD
    Galilee Church
    Ben Hines
    Thanks for your quick response. However, you have not addressed the issue that I stated in my initial post of March 7, 2012. When you have sited the research that addresses the unique biology of homosexuals, then I will address that research and I will then answer your and Juli's questions. What I am asking you to address is the fundamental questions related to homosexuality;
    1. Are homosexuals biologically different and if so, how are they different? What is the evidence that supports this difference?
    2. If they are not different, then is homosexual behavior a choice?
    3. If homosexual behavior a choice, then how does this choice fit in with God's plan for man?
    4. If homosexual behavior is not consistent with God's plan for man, then how does man address it and then begin to live within God's plan?

    You correctly noted that I did not mention the second commandment in MT 22: 37-40 which I did for a reason. As I read this passage carefully, I see that the second general commandment is subservient to the first general commandment. When God gave Moses the Ten Commandments (Ex 20: 1-17, Deut 5: 5-21) the first four commandments relate to man's relationship to God and the next six commandments relate to man's relationship to man. That is what Jesus stated in Mt 22:38 "This is the first and great commandment (KJV)". He did not say that "Thou shalt love thy neighbor with all thy heart, and with all thy soul , and with all thy mind". Interestingly, when I compare the NIV with the KJV, the NIV uses "greatest" and the KJV uses "great", but either way, it appears that the second general commandment summarizes God's law for our relationship with one another.
    When you study the Beatitudes (MT 5: 1-11) you will see that there is a gradual evolution that begins with an internal transformation in our relationship to God (MT 5: 3-6) before there is an external manifestation (Mt 5: 7-10) in our relationship to man.
    Obviously as I read and study scripture, I put the Supremacy of God above all else. If I love the Lord with all of my heart, all of my soul, and all of my mind, then that love for Him will result in the transformation or renewing of my mind and I become a new creation that shows externally in my relationship to others.
    I have invited you to communicate off line with me, but I think that what we are addressing is critically important not only to you and to me, but likely to many others.
    Ben Carey MD

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    1. Ben Hines - Grace Church, YorktownMarch 25, 2012 at 8:17 PM

      Dr. Carey,

      I never cited anything in the first place. Nor did I make claims regarding biology or psychodynamics. The citations about which you have harbored much concern are references that Rev. Walsh makes in here initial post on this thread. I extended a compromise to you, hoping that you would address the very first points that Julie raised in this thread. I am not interested in discussing the 'research' that you are so deeply concerned with, at least not interested in doing so here on this particular blog post. The posting is about scripture---and therefore Juli made some points regarding how you might choose to deal with other 'problematic' texts. As one Christian to another, I am patiently asking you to please explain to me in simple terms how you deal with those other scriptural issues that Juli points out.

      It seems unfair that you would answer my offer with yet another refusing stance of your own, but I want to demonstrate to you that I am committed to this dialog. Your words have felt hurtful to me now on more than one occasion & I have said so. And while I would still very much like to meet with you in person, I hope that you will simply answer the questions posed originally by Juli in brief, forthright fashion.

      Delete
  11. James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel Episcopal Church

    Dr. Carey,
    Is this the type of study to which you are referring?
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080628205430.htm

    While I cannot gain access to the full article online, the press release from Science Daily and the abstract from the study seems to be addressing some of your questions. I'd love to read a full copy of the study, if you can lay your hands on one. Being an MD, you may have fuller access than I.

    There are some facts reported in the abstract and the article that appear to address the occurrence of homosexuality, chiefly that sexual desire is shaped by genetics and random environmental factors. I'd love it if you can access the full article and perhaps post it for us and give us your opinion.

    I feel thankful and blessed for the diversity of voices willing to express their thoughts concerning this difficult topic in this type of forum.

    God's blessings,
    James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel

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  12. James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel-Virginia Beach

    Forgot to put my city in my previous post. Virginia Beach.

    Sorry.
    James

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  13. Ben Carey MD
    Galilee church
    Virginia Beach
    James Medley (and Ben Hines),
    Thanks you for your question; I was able to access this site, but all I saw were the author's conclusions. The most salient point is that what role genetics may play is extremely limited, if at all. For genetics to be a primary factor, one would have to locate a homosexual gene which has not been done. I am not aware of there being any anatomic or neurophysiological basis for homosexuality. As this is only a summary and I have not looked at the research, I will mention only one technical problem with the article:
    The summary mentions 3826 same gender pairs and does not identify these pairs as either fraternal or as identical and this is a critically important point when we look at determining if there is a genetic trait. As an aside, some of the research performed by Mark Shuckitt MD in the early 1980's looking at the inheritance of alcoholism did suggest a genetic basis leading to Robert Clonninger's article in Science (1988) delineating the typology of alcoholism. In my prior posts, I have mentioned that Type II alcoholics are biologically different than their age matched controls, before ever being exposed to alcohol, based upon measurable Beta endorphin levels and the P 300 wave on EEG. Approximately 50% of all alcoholism is genetically based. What was once considered a disease of moral turpitude is now considered by most physician, including someone such as myself to be a biologically based disorder. This understanding shows why a medication such as Revia (naltrexone ) works well in Type II alcoholics and does not work well with Type I alcoholics.
    What will be helpful for you and others to clarify the science is to:
    1. Google "Neurophysiology of Homosexuality"
    2. At the bottom of the page open the pdf file titled "Science does not support the claim that Homosexuality is Genetic" This article is a meta-anlysis of the state of knowledge from research. I have not yet read anything to refute the conclusions.
    I am certainly quite willing to look at other data from a scientific standpoint.
    Ben Carey MD

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  14. James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel-Virginia Beach

    Dr. Carey,
    Thank you for the search suggestion. I have been perusing with interest many, many articles, abstracts, previews, and conclusions. Do you have anything for a headache? Just kidding. I truly found the reading fascinating, even if it is a wee bit outside my area of expertise. I found abstracts and conclusions that contended homosexuality is genetically based. I found others that said not. I found a study that stated there is no difference in brain structure and another that said there were differences in brain structure. I found articles that spoke of homosexuality in animals and others that contended you couldn't call animal behavior homosexuality as we understand that term. Most of the articles, previews, and abstracts I read agreed that there is not a "gay gene" and that sexual orientation and gender identity are influenced by a wide range of variables, including genetics, random environmental factors (such as hormone and chemical exposure to a developing fetus), and behavioral factors (experiences after birth). Many of the studies seemed to indicate that sexual identity, be it homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual, are all under these influences and that sexual identity is much more fluid than previously thought. Again, do you have an aspirin?

    A conclusion that I arrived at after my reading is that there is apparently no firm consensus on this subject in the scientific community. Some say it is nature, others say nurture, others say it is a both/and. The insight this brought me to is that the science really doesn't matter. There are many behaviors in the animal kingdom and in earlier humans that Christians consider sinful. What we would term polygamy, having multiple sexual partners for the purpose of procreation, is found throughout our non-human cousins and in the Patriarchs of the Old Testament but modern Christians would consider that to be sinful behavior in human beings, while a non-"natural" behavior like monogamy is found in only a minority of our non-human neighbors (and the biblical Patriarchs) and Christians consider it a virtue.

    The question becomes, for me, not whether homosexuality is biologically based or if it is wholly a choice, but whether or not the behavior is sinful. I believe that there are biological factors that influence sexual identity, but that does not answer the question of sin. The idea on which I think we need to concentrate is whether or not a committed, loving, monogamous same-gender relationship can be part of the true picture of God or not based on our theological study.

    Sorry for the long post and I invite your, and others, comments. As I stated in a previous post, the diverse voices found in this forum is a blessing. Now, who has that aspirin?

    James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel

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  15. Ben Carey MD
    Galilee church
    Virginia Beach
    James Medley:
    Thanks for your thoughts. The point that I have been trying to make is, in essence, what you have stated. When I entered this blog on March 7, I responded to Reverend Eileen Walsh's statements which I have challenged on a factual basis. Please see my March 21 response to Ben Hines in which I asked 4 basic questions. I think that question 1 can now be put to rest unless there is something that comes up in research yet to be performed.
    As a psychiatrist, I have treated homosexual patients and I have not seen a consistent psychodynamic to explain the behavior. Homosexuality appears to be multi-factorial with there being many different influences such as an absent or weak father with a dominating mother, childhood / adolescent exposure by an older male (NMBLA), adolescent curiosity, poor self concept, dysinhibition from alcohol / drugs as well as other life experiences. Certainly adolescence is frequently filled with identity issues, parental struggles, peer pressure, and the potential for alcohol and drug abuse. This time of life is a period of vulnerability and confusion making a good opportunity for a charismatic homosexual male to abuse that power by inappropriate contact with an adolescent male. The sex abuse scandals at Penn State and Syracuse University demonstrate this problem. There is even a national organization, NMBLA (National Man Boy Love Association) that marches in San Francisco and their message is unmistakable.
    I invite you to go back to the beginning of this blog and read my many other posts as we begin to examine what we think that this means in God's eyes. I have tried to address these issues as I see them based upon my understanding of scripture. I have posted my e mail address which is bcarey8747@aol.com. If you send me an E mail, I will then forward to you a power point presentation that I have given on Sharing the Gospel. It will give you an understanding of how I think and where I place the authority of scripture. This may clarify for you and any others how I will look at this as well as other issues.
    I do not presume to know God's thoughts (Isaiah 55: 8-9) and all that I can do is look to scripture for an understanding and be patient on the Lord's revelation through His Word (Psalm 46: 10).
    Ben Carey MD

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  16. James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel-Virginia Beach

    Dr. Carey,
    It seems that their is a conflation of pedophilia and homosexuality in your response. I think we need to be clear that they are two different things and that, statistically, a pedophile is most likely to be a heterosexual man, someone who does not have sexual relationships with other men but with women, as well as being a predator of children. Just wanted to make sure we don't confuse apples and oranges.

    James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel

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  17. Ben Carey MD
    Galilee Church
    Virginia Beach, VA
    James Medley,
    Thanks fo your response. In my my most recent comment I was describing some of the etiologic factors fpor the development of homosexuality after I had addressed the scientific knowledge. NAMBLA is the North Am,erican Man Boy Love Association and its purpose is to push for the legalization of same sex relations between adult males and adolescent males. It is of course a pedophilic relationship as defined by the APA definition of Pedophilia per DSMIV TR.
    You can google NAMBLA and you will see that it is an organization that can induce homosexual relations in developing adolescent males.
    I will send you the power point talk when i return to Virginia Beach tomorrow.
    Ben Carey MD

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    1. Ben Hines - Grace Church, YorktownMarch 25, 2012 at 8:26 PM

      Dr. Carey,
      I would invite you to pause and exercise some caution in your words as you proceed. Please remember that you are not here to speak about statistics or peer-reviewed data, but that this blog is forum to talk about the truth of people's lives. Are you interested in sharing your thoughts in a way that steps away from your comfort zone of aggregate, empirical data & instead seeks to be part of a relational conversation rooted in the way gay & lesbian people experience life in Jesus Christ?

      James Medley has kindly alerted you to a weakness in your communication--namely that you are conflating two concepts. Do you mean to suggest that homosexuality and pedophilia are necessarily linked? Do you believe that a person could be gay and not also a pedophile? Or do you believe that all gay people are (potentially or actually) pedophiles as well?

      Delete
  18. Ben Carey MD
    Galilee Church
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Ben Hines
    See my personal E mail to you sent moments ago. If you go back and look at my March 22 post, you will see what I stated and I am not sure how this statement was construed to my equating pedophilia with homosexuality. What I was stating is that an adolescent male being exposed to pedophilic behavior was one of multiple risk factors for the development of homosexuality. I was stating the NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association), which is a pedophilic organization whom I have witnessed marching when I was in San Francisco, actively recruits vulnerable males into homosexuality. Being exposed to pedophilic behavior is a risk factor for the development of homosexuality.
    Put succinctly, I see being exposed to pedophilia as one of multiple risk factors for the development of homosexuality. My thinking is not so simplistic as to not consider multiple other etiologies. I do not equate pedophilia with homosexuality, but I do point out the risk factor for pedophilia causing homosexuality in vulneralbe adolescent males. You might want to look at the NAMBLA web site to see its undelying premise.
    I hope that this post makes more clear what I have been stating.
    Ben Carey MD

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  19. James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel-Virginia Beach

    Dr. Carey,
    I'm familiar with NAMBLA, sadly to say, but I think we're still talking about two different things. Members of NAMBLA are pedophiles (or more accurately either hebephiles [a person with a sexual preference for an individual in the early years of puberty, 11-14] or an ephebophile [a person with a sexual preference for an individual in later adolescence, 14-19]). However, this sexual preference is not the same as same-gender preference between adults. As I understand the preferences (and as shorthand I'll use pedophile, even though it is not entirely accurate) they are not about homosexuality. Pedophiles are either fixated (having a preference for children, male, female, or both)or regressed (having developed an adult sexual orientation and, under stress, "regressing" to a less mature orientation and developing a preference for children). It is not about recruiting boys to homosexual behavior, it is about recruiting children to sexual behavior. Most fixated pedophiles never develop a preference for adults. It is about age. This is why we read about pedophiles who will stop molesting a certain child after they get "too old".

    A homosexual is no more likely to molest a child than a heterosexual. Not to say that homosexuals (or bisexuals, or heterosexuals) do not molest children. Just that they are no more likely to do it than our heterosexual neighbor. I just want to make sure we're not reinforcing old stereotypes and myths in our discussion on the blog and I'm sure that is not your intention. I respect your intelligence and passion around this subject and I enjoy our discussions immensely. Heck, I've even learned some things. Thank you for that.

    Blessings,
    James Medley
    Eastern Shore Chapel-Virginia Beach

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  20. Ben Carey MD
    Galilee Church
    Virginia Beach
    James Medley+
    To clarify the terminology for others reading this blog, the American Psychiatric Association criteria per DSM IV TR(DSM V has not been released) is as follows regarding Pedophilia:
    A. Over a period of at least 6 Months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
    B. The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
    C. The person is at least 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
    Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.
    Specify if:
    Sexually attracted to Males
    Sexually attracted to Females
    Sexually attracted to Both
    Specify if:
    Limited to Incest
    Specify type:
    Exclusive Type(attracted only to children)
    Nonexclusive Type

    Legal definitions for Pedophilia may vary depending upon the jurisdiction, but the above is what is meant specifically when psychiatrists diagnose pedophilia.
    The point that I have been trying to make and should not be lost regarding definitions is that pedophilic behavior by an adult male towards a latency age male or an adolescent male can result in the young male then engaging homosexual behavior. An issue that we will need to clarify is the difference in homosexual behavior vs homosexual orientation without homosexual behavior. This discussion will need more time, particularly as how it relates to scripture.
    My last review of data from Parents United suggests that at least 50 % of all parents who engage in incest are they themselves the victims of incest. i hope that this blog will clarify some definitions.
    Ben Carey MD

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  21. Ben Carey MD
    Galilee Church
    Virginia Beach
    Juli Edwards, Ben Hines, Bill Hunter, James Medley+
    I am writing this post not only to you, but also to a larger audience who are reading this post and have not yet entered the discussion.
    My initial focus on this blog was to address the science of homosexuality and I did not want to address other issues until we were clear about the science. I remain willing to look at any scientific studies at a future date. For people who have talked to me, you will know that I am a linear thinker; ie, one thought then builds on the next thought. I use the analogy of hunting with a rifle (only one powerful bullet for a large target such as a deer) vs hunting with a shotgun (many pellets for a fast moving and small target such as a duck). I stay on topic in a linear fashion before I scatter to another topic. It is now time to move on to another topic.
    I will now address the Law from the point of a conservative Christian perspective. The Law as given to Moses by God was multifunctional and had three major elements:
    1. Ceremonial Law, at its core, was to point to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus to atone for all of man's sins. The use of animal sacrifice, or the shedding of blood, to cover man's sins begins with Genesis 3:21 to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness (sin), followed by Passover (Exodus 12: 1-15, 22), then prophesied (Isaiah 53), appropriately recognized (John 1: 29, 36), and then discussed by Christ (Matthew 5: 17). Once Christ died on the cross as the propitiation for all of man's sins, there no longer became a need for Ceremonial Law (Matthew 27: 50-54).
    2. Civil Law, at its core, applied to daily living in Israel and also included dietary restrictions,such as eating shellfish. The purpose of this aspect of the Law was to keep the Israelites as a separate people and to always help them self identify as God's chosen people. It is much later, that God removes dietary restriction literally and figuratively in Peter's dream when God sends him to meet with Cornelius, a gentile, telling Peter that "What God has cleansed (such as believing gentiles, or four footed beasts which Peter could kill and eat)that call thou not common" (Acts 10: 15 KJV). Therefore, there were no longer dietary restrictions nor were there restrictions on who could become God's people. Matthew 11: 28-30 is Christ's invitation to all of us and Romans 10: 8-10 is the requirement for salvation.
    3. Moral Law is best illustrated in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20: 1-17, Deuteronomy 5: 6-21). The first four of the Ten Commandments relate to our relationship with God and the next six relate to our relationship to each other. I do not see that the Moral Law has been removed by God as He has removed the Ceremonial Law and the Civil Law.

    How does this then apply to homosexuality? The first point is to differentiate between same sex ATTRACTION vs homosexual BEHAVIOR. Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13 in the Old Testament condemn the BEHAVIOR and Romans 1: 18-32 describe the rejection of God resulting in homosexual BEHAVIOR vs 26-27. Paul tells us to flee fornication (KJV) or Sexual immorality (NIV). Paul also tells us that we are not given any temptation except what is common to man and God will give us the strength to resist temptation (I Corinthians 10: 13). These passages address BEHAVIOR, but Christ goes one step further in looking at the issue of lust (Matthew 5: 28). Sin starts in the mind before it occurs in the body. What BEHAVIOR do we have that allows Satan to subtly seduce us with the slippery slope of sexual sin? Since we are all sexual beings, what do these scriptures mean for each of us? What is the BEHAVIOR that we choose to have?

    I will continue to write for a larger audience than the four of you who have asked me specific questions on this blog and by e mail.
    Ben Carey MD

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